Talk:Self-Control Number
I feel that describing the mechanics of the self-control number strays into copying rules out of the rulebooks, and that should be cut out. If no one objects, I'll go ahead and do that.Grouchy Chris 01:45, November 3, 2010 (UTC) : I dissagree, We are talking the General concept, not here can be used with out the rule book. It does not cover what levels or proces you can get, merely the concepts, And only those needed to understand what gets written on a character sheet -- 21:04, November 3, 2010 (UTC) :: No rule, by itself, will let you play the game without the rule book. But I don't think the purpose of an article on a particular game mechanic should be to repeat what's in the rulebooks, however brief the treatment the article gives it. The purpose of the article should be to point the reader to references in the rule books, and to rulings made by Kromm, so that they can read what they need to know in sources provided by SJG. If we start saying "this rule works like this," even very briefly, we're stepping out of the role of providing a reference, and stepping into the role of explaining rules, which is what GURPS books are for. I think we should keep away from that.Grouchy Chris 21:27, November 3, 2010 (UTC) :::I think that on subjects like the Attributes, well we should describe what an attribute is (most gamers will know just from the name anyway), and we should describe what an advantage is, and I think Self-Control numbers fall in that category of "general rules" that I think it might be ok to repeat, certainly we can't possibly define how every (or really any) advantage, disadvantage, spell, or skill work (I'm not sure about attributes... I suppose just the names might be descriptive enough for them). Like we could describe the system for success rolls 'roll 3d6 and check to see if you're below the target number', cause that's a general thing, it applies to all skills/spells/&c. --Modred (talk). 21:41, November 3, 2010 (UTC) :::: Okay, but what's the purpose of describing rules, general or otherwise? Sure, we could do it, but why do we want to? Anyone who has the books can read about Strength. Anyone who doesn't have the books shouldn't be relying on us to tell them how things work. Who are we serving by telling them, in this case, that lower self-control numbers are harder to resist?Grouchy Chris 22:05, November 3, 2010 (UTC) :::::Hmm... I suppose the fact that lower self control numbers are harder to resist isn't signifigant. My concern is people knowing "A self-control number is a number that indicates a character's susceptibility to some mental disadvantages" which is just enough information for people to have any idea what a Self-Control Number is. The people we're serving are people who don't know the rules very well (which isn't just new people as anyone could forget rules they've learnt), having possession of the rulebooks doesn't mean that someone automatically knows and understands every rule within them, and by introducing each rule in a general way (at least the purpose of it, if not the mechanics) we make it possible for anyone to understand the subjects we're talking about in the articles. --Modred (talk). 02:02, November 4, 2010 (UTC) ::::::That's what was in the article originally. I figured it was enough to identify "self-control number" and remind people of what it is, without telling them how it works. "Purpose, not mechanics" is exactly what I think the article should be, along with pointers to further information about it in SJG resources.Grouchy Chris 00:59, November 5, 2010 (UTC) Also if it is in GURPS lite I'm sure they not worried about it being "free" -- 06:36, November 4, 2010 (UTC) :There's a lot of stuff in Lite that they wouldn't want anyone posting elsewhere. The online policy explicitly forbids posting "forms, charts, tables, and text." I know this is not a case of copying rules verbatim, but to keep with the spirit of the online policy, I think we should stay away from restating the rules in our own words too.Grouchy Chris 00:59, November 5, 2010 (UTC) ::It'd not a matter of restating the rules, we're not giving the rules, we're just explaining what a self-control number is supposed to mean. That it's something about maintaining control of yourself and it's usually (always?) connected to a disadvantage. That really doesn't give you enough information if you don't know the subject already, but at least it'd get you in the right ballpark. Another thing we might mention is the change form 3e to 4e in relation to self-control rolls, cause I think Self-control rolls are new in 4th and that they used to be just Will rolls. --Modred (talk). 04:37, November 5, 2010 (UTC) :::Let me be clear that it's the second and third sentences that I'm objecting to. (See above on "purpose, not mechanics.") I don't object to the first sentence; it's what I wrote when I started the article. I agree that noting the difference from 3rd could and probably should go in the article, but comparing 3rd to 4th is a vast subject which I was planning on leaving for later.Grouchy Chris 05:14, November 5, 2010 (UTC) ::::Oh! Sorry, I only think that the first sentence should stay. I don't know about the others. I wanna be clear that I misunderstood & thought you wanted to erase the entire first paragraph, otherwise I would never have gotten into a ~4,000 character discussion over a ~100 character edit. Though it's nice that we're discussing policy. --Modred (talk). 06:54, November 5, 2010 (UTC) Will discussion I removed the recent changes by SirTifyable, because a self-control number specifically relates to certain mental disadvantages, and doesn't relate to temptation in general. It's not the same thing as Will at all. Most of the new text concerned Will, so I removed it and put the article more or less back as it was. SirT, I'm not trying to squelch your contribution, but I think Will needs to be covered in its own article.Grouchy Chris 03:34, November 13, 2010 (UTC) : Actully the Self-Control Roll in 3e was Will, and the move away from it worth covering -- 04:05, November 14, 2010 (UTC) : : : : I haven't spent much time on-line recently, so that's why I haven't contributed to this discussion. I have no problem with other people taking my contributions out if they have a good reason and explain it - that's what a Wiki's all about after all. : But it does raise the question of what these skill pages are for. I approached them in the light of expanding on what's in the basic books, offering more explanation where I felt it could help. After all, SJG no doubt feel that the explanations in the book sometimes need clarifying - hence Kromm's very active participation in the forum. : So, apart from the links to Kromm's comments (fabulous, and very valuable!) what do people want to see? At the moment most pages merely give the page reference (which can be found in the index of each book) and the skill type (found in the entry), so what are they supposed to be adding? : (Just to clarify the Will/Self-Control thing, I am a 3rd edn GM and so need to check my 4th edn books when contributing. Obviously I missed it there, but even if I had I still think that a Will roll and a Self-Control roll are pretty much the same thing and could be handled together. Maybe a page called Resisting Temptation wouldn't offend anyone?) : Sir Tifyable 13:58, November 20, 2010 (UTC) :: The key difference is in 3e a disadvantage always cost the same regardless of how high or low your will was, and you could not be good at resisting one and bad at the other. in 4e divorcing the SC from Will meant that easy to resist version don't give you as many points back and each can tailored to the character. -- 22:00, November 21, 2010 (UTC) :: Sir T, I am all for an article on comparing Will and self-control numbers. And I also think there's room in this article for explaining how things were changed from 3rd ed. As for what articles should include generally, I think each article should start with a just-the-facts list of where the rules are. True, you can get page references out of the index of any book, but it's not always obvious where to look. You might not think to look in Space for a new specialty of boating, for instance. That and Kromm Quotes are what I'm doing right now, but there is obviously room for much more, such as what you did with bicycling. I created a section for that part so it's clear what's official GURPS rules and what's advice from fellow gamers. Let me know if you like that kind of organization for the articles.Grouchy Chris 04:44, November 22, 2010 (UTC) :: :: :: Yes, I like the separation of Game Advice from the rest of it in bicycling. Hmm, time to start thinking about the combined Will/SC page...Sir Tifyable 18:17, November 22, 2010 (UTC)